Easy answer is, they don't. Today I had a long twitter conversation with @Auragasmic, who whole heartedly defends the actions of Jennifer Fox, the woman in the occupy Seattle protest who supposedly miscarried 5 days after being pepper sprayed by police. It appears Jennifer's story may be something she concocted for attention.
Fox said she had three ultrasound pictures of her fetus in her tent, but declined to show them to reporters
She also said she did not plan to pick up medical records at Harborview Medical Center that could document the miscarriage until after a planned memorial service Saturday, and she declined to sign a waiver allowing reporters to obtain the documents independently.
"My daughter is a compulsive liar," Stebbins said. "She's a wannabe drama queen." - Ms. Stebbins is her former foster mother.
"I seriously doubt, that if she is claiming she had a miscarriage, that she was even pregnant," said Nicole Botes, who has known Fox for a decade. "I'd like to see actual medical reports."
There are three possibilities to this story.
- She was telling the truth
- She was lying
- We'll never know because we can't prove she was lying, and she won't prove she was telling the truth
I'm going with #3. I'll post an update at the bottom of this post if I'm wrong.
Now back to @Auragasmic. I posed this question: "I take it you would defend a woman who took unnecessary risks, and lost her baby as a result?" Her answer shouldn't surprise any of us.
So when should a woman be held responsible for the death of her unborn baby? Auragasmic seems to think 'never'. I disagree. Some scenarios I used in our conversation were jumping out of an airplane, and running with the bulls. She used less risky scenarios, like driving to work.
If a pregnant woman gets into an auto accident on her way to work, and her baby dies as a direct result, is it the woman's fault?
If a pregnant woman jumps from an airplane, and her baby dies as a direct result of a bumpy landing, is it the woman's fault?
If a pregnant woman gets gored while running with the bulls, and her baby dies as a result, is it the woman's fault?
We can go further:
If a pregnant woman has two options to cross a river, one being a bridge 100 ft away, the other being a fallen tree right in front of her, she chooses the tree because she likes challenges, she falls, her baby dies, is it her fault?
Where would you draw the line?
Glad to see this question being asked, though I'm guessing you can expect crickets from the proaborts. I've personally witnessed many of them saying women should be free to choose whatever during pregnancy, including drinking, smoking and drug use. It's all part of doctrinaire feminism in which the choices of women must never be questioned, even the really stupid ones. If nothing else, it's a great illustration of how apallingly self centered and narcissistic radical feminism is-long term consequences to another don't matter when faced with momentary pleasures. Four year old mentality, and it's pathetic that grown women expect others to give them attagirls for their childish behavior. Wonder if any of them will woman up enough to actually answer here?
ReplyDeleteI hope they do answer, I'd like to know how many would support killing a 6 or 7 month gestation baby on the whim of the mother. What I think they think, and what I think they'll say, are two different things. I can't imagine anyone not feeling loss when a baby dies, even if it's not born yet. But I expect they will voice the same view as Auragasmic, even if it's not what they believe in their heart.
ReplyDeleteNo answer from the 'strong, independent, empowered' feminists? SO not surprised. Rawwrr, LOL.
ReplyDeleteIn order to avoid all of these sticky situations (and god knows how many pregnant women jump out of airplanes but its an important question) we should incarcerate all pregnant women in a "pregnant mothers" type facility were they can be monitored 24 hrs a day 7 days a week until they give birth. Then they will be allowed out into society again. Problem solved. Now go out and start pushing congress to pass a bill--see how the American women in this country respond.
ReplyDeleteJackie - You missed the point. There are necessary risks, like driving, and unnessecary risks, like skydiving. Where do you personally draw the line on risks a pregnant woman should take when it comes to her safety, and the safety of her unborn baby?
ReplyDeleteWhen I was pregnant, my doctor told me what I shouldn't do and I didn't. There are plenty of guidelines and recommendations for women when pregnant that are easily accessible. I don't see why my or your opinion in the matter is important.
ReplyDeleteI haven't been following the Fox story you mentioned above but I see it as one story in a larger narrative of police brutality. But you turn it around into a pro-choice/ pro-life argument. I'm thinking your suggesting, or questioning at the very least, if pregnant women should be banned from attending Occupy Wall Street or something. If thats the case, a pregnant woman has every right to exercise her right of freedom to assemble awarded to her by the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Now please stop with the ridiculous straw man arguments about women jumping out of trees and skydiving and so forth. You're being stupid.
I'm asking if you would hold the woman responsible, ever, if her unborn child died due to unneccasary risks that she took. I realize the examples may seem extreme, but they're not.
ReplyDeleteRE: The Fox story. Protester's were blocking a major intersection during rush hour. The police asked/ordered them to the sidewalk, some refused. The police used pepper spray and their bicycles to push the protesters back. Fox was in the middle of the crowd. and wouldn't move when police ordered her to. She got sprayed, and said she got kicked and bumped with a bike.
I am not suggesting she shouldn't have attended the protest. I am suggesting that she could have placed herself in a safer area, and obeyed the police when they ordered the crowd to move.
The reason it is on this blog at all, is because she said the police 'murdered her unborn baby'. And the reason it is a prochoice prolife debate is 'responsibility'. When does prochoice hold women responsible for harm that comes to their unborn baby, due to them taking unnecessary risks. It's a valid question.
" I realize the examples may seem extreme, but they're not."
ReplyDeleteThey're just stupid examples.
"I am suggesting that she could have placed herself in a safer area, and obeyed the police when they ordered the crowd to move."
Maybe there should be pro-lifers there making sure pregnant women know their place.
"When does prochoice hold women responsible for harm that comes to their unborn baby, due to them taking unnecessary risks. It's a valid question."
The prochoice community has nothing to do with this situation.
All you're trying to do is create this stupid argument to draw up heated emotions by implying that women are too stupid to be pregnant without your self-imposed moral superiority to shame them and keep them in their place.
"They're just stupid examples." - Did you not give similar 'stupid examples' on the other post?
ReplyDeletehttp://theantiabortiongang.blogspot.com/2011/11/have-you-seen-movie-180-yet.html?showComment=1322360096063#c5592223413368617543
"Maybe there should be pro-lifers there making sure pregnant women know their place." - Or maybe pregnant women should just use common sense? Even pro-choice 'The Truther Girls' say as much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=gNbBgOzw-dA
"The prochoice community has nothing to do with this situation." - Because the fetus is worthless to the prochoice community, right?
"All you're trying to do is create this stupid argument to draw up heated emotions by implying that women are too stupid to be pregnant without your self-imposed moral superiority to shame them and keep them in their place." - My argument is not about keeping women in their place. It's about women taking responsibiltiy for the z/e/f in their womb.
I was raised in a house full of male chauvenists. "A woman's place is in the house" "She needs to be barefoot and pregnant" I've heard it all, so spare me the drama.
" Did you not give similar 'stupid examples' on the other post? "
ReplyDeleteThey're not stupid examples. They are comparing our actions in other cases in which we take risk to show the misogyny in your argument.
"Even pro-choice 'The Truther Girls' say as much."
Good for them. Why are you asking the question then if you have an answer?
"My argument is not about keeping women in their place. It's about women taking responsibiltiy for the z/e/f in their womb."
And I would say that women who choose to carry a pregnancy to term do. Just because this one woman didn't doesn't mean all women put themselves in dangerous situations while pregnant. We're not a monolithic group, you know.
" I've heard it all, so spare me the drama."
Ya, and you've sure seemed to internalized it as well. How nice for you. That doesn't mean other women have to be subjected to that bullshit.
From the other post - "Driving a car also requires consenting to run the risk of a car accident, it doesn’t require consenting to a car accident."
ReplyDeleteBut the risk is there. Defensive driving can prevent most accidents, but there is still a risk. Getting medical treatment for injuries may save your life, where getting an abortion because you get pregnant, ends the life of another.
"If your argument is that pregnancy is “natural” and therefore should be allowed to continue unabated by medical intervention, than you must also concede that all other naturally occurring phenomena, including illness, must also be allowed to run their course without treatment."
IF pregnancy was an illness, you might have a valid argument. But it's not an illness, or a disease, is it?
"Ya, and you've sure seemed to internalized it as well. How nice for you. That doesn't mean other women have to be subjected to that bs."
ReplyDeleteExactly, you haven't been. You have no idea what women went through to gain respect as PEOPLE, and they didn't have to kill their unborn children to do it. All you know is what you read in feminist magazines and on feminist websites.
Of course it's a disease, TAAG, we must always read from the feminist script. All women are just victims of the man-pregnancy is gonna kill us all and motherhood is slavery! God we're so empowered aren't we? LMAO. We should be absolutely free to smoke crack and take whatever risks we want while pregnant, I mean who cares if we force lifelong disabilty onto a baby, the taxpayers will step up and take care of him/her for us, the choices of women must never be questioned because we're special and too weak to own our own stupidity. Just do whatever you want and screw the consequences-those are for grownups and we're just children ourselves, we can't be held responsible for the things we do.
ReplyDeleteMPQ - It's mind boggling to me that feminists think killing their unborn children 'empowers' them. I mean WTH? Women are SO much better off being 'respected' as sexual objects willing to kill their unborn children, rather than as mothers who would do ANYthing to protect them.
ReplyDeleteYep, and then they have the unmitigated gall to call themselves prowoman. Most antiwoman ideology ever.
ReplyDeleteMoronic PROLIFE Quotes :It's mind boggling to me that feminists think killing their unborn children 'empowers' them.
ReplyDeleteThank you Jackie (whoever you are) for calling these people out! Their idiocy and lack of empathy is truly astounding.
ReplyDeleteWelcome GetKat! So where do you draw the line on women's actions that could risk the lives of their fetus?
ReplyDelete